Compulsory Citizens of the non-conscious kind 2

Current mood: intimidated
Current music: http://www.platforma.pl/trzepak/cpm/

Compulsory Citizens of the non-conscious kind
CyberExpress 28/6/2003:
” So, you were born outside of Poland, elsewhere in the world. But at least one of your parents or grandparents was Polish. You’ve never been to Poland – hell, you can’t even speak the language. Well, guess what? You’re a Polish citizen! And next time you travel to Poland you’d better have a Polish passport, or you could be in trouble with the law!!

Sounds absurd? It certainly does. But it also happens to be true. Yep, buddy, matey, pal, old chum – in the light of the current Polish law, you’re a Polak too. I know you hate flaczki (tripe) and you can barely stand the smell of Old Grandpa Jozek’s bimber (moonshine). It matters not. You’re a Polak. …more

dodatek podhalański


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[info]acailin
2003-10-09 06:27 am UTC (link)
I think I’ve heard this elsewhere, too. But how does the Polish authorities know that you’re Polish? One cannot believe everything that they read on the Internet–is there a way to verify this story? And if you’re living in the States, how in the world would you get a Polish passport?

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[info]jabber
2003-10-09 07:56 am UTC (link)
Living in the US, you get a PL passport by getting in touch with the consulate. NYC, IIRC. It takes the better part of a year to process the paperwork, never mind the unreasonable costs.

The heritage trace, apparently, is to be done by correlating who your parents are, and whether they are citizens. This seems tenuous at best, but the potential for having to prove that you are NOT a PL citizen is a nasty, nasty thing.

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how the Polish authorities know that you’re Polish?
[info]robol
2003-10-09 09:27 am UTC (link)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/robol/10897.html?thread=18833#t18833

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Last Name
(Anonymous)
2005-03-04 08:10 pm UTC (link)
Your last name gives you away- anything-ski

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Re: Last Name
(Anonymous)
2005-12-20 05:00 pm UTC (link)
Miejsce urodzenia cie wyda!!!!!!

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Re: Last Name
(Anonymous)
2005-12-20 05:01 pm UTC (link)
Oops, the birth place will always read POLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Great Grandparents?
[info]jablms59
2003-10-09 07:07 am UTC (link)
My Great Grandfather came over from Poland…

Does this make me a Polish Citizen?

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Re: Great Grandparents?
[info]robol
2003-10-09 11:21 am UTC (link)
Yes.
In the dim “light” of the Polish “law”.
As soon as you set your foot on the Polish turf.
Until then you also are an untouchable Polish Citizen UPC meaning they can’t enslave you yet.

You’re now like Uncle Tom who didn’t go south just yet😉

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[info]crimsonfleur
2003-10-09 08:26 am UTC (link)
lol.. see, there’s some truth in the whole “everyone’s at least a little Polish”

yup, it’s Poland’s plan to take over the world.. it’s going to be the next super power you know😉

besides if you’re an american citizen, in poland, and they arrest you for not having a polish passport… doesn’t our us. citezenship have power over that? i mean i dind’t know dual citizenship was still allowed if you were a native born american with some other heritage background.

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[info]jabber
2003-10-09 08:36 am UTC (link)
It would apprear that, per international law, Polish citizenship supercedes US citizenship, when the individual is in Poland.

Interesting bit of complexity there, if the PL government claims you’re Polish, you claim you’re not, they jail you, and since they tell the US that you’re Polish, the US doesn’t step in. It’s “Guantanamoski Bay”.

As I’d mentioned elsewhere, I’m just waiting for the next step, the PL law that all Citizens, including those living abroad, should be paying their PL taxes.

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“Guantanamoski Bay”
[info]robol
2003-10-09 10:21 am UTC (link)
I like this phrase!

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[info]crimsonfleur
2003-10-09 11:01 am UTC (link)
yeah.. i’m waiting for that to come about too.. my parents probably wouldn’t mind it seeing as they just bought some land there.. even though i highly doubt any of us are going to ever use it for anything…

i don’t know, i’m a little torn over this.. when i go to Poland i’m “the american” yet they want to prove that i should have polish ctizenship? it doesn’t make any sense to me. I mean shoot… Muzyny sa muzynami, ile z tych samych polakow ktorzy tak mowia na ten temat by mowili ze ten muzyn nie jest czystym polakiem chociaz jest rodzony na polskiej ziemi, mowi czysto po polski, i jest dalszym pokoleniem takich samych rodzaju polakow… i dla tego nie powinnien miec te same prawa. Albo daj my ze ktos z azii albo gdzies.. ktos z calkiem inney narodowosci pojechal sobe do polski, nauczyl sie jezyka, wzial slub z “czystem” polakiem i sa pozniej dzieci mieszane… na pewno bylaby wtedy werzia inna na ta sprawe.

okay, sorry for butchering the language, but i didn’t feel like making those points in a “globally understood” language (english) {don’t need to hear shit from people who don’t get the point i’m trying to make} so yeah, i meant no offense by that comment at all

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[info]jabber
2003-10-09 01:13 pm UTC (link)
Nevermind the foreigners. Polish Jews have, though citizens for generations, been seen by many as “second class citizens”. We need to be careful about mixing people’s prejudices and the government’s legal outreach/”embrace and extend” program.

That “outsiders” are not seen as Poles by Poles is one thing. That “outsiders” are seen as Poles by the government, even when these “outsiders” might not want to take on that identity, is a different kettle of bigos.

I use the term “outsiders” lovingly of course, to make the distinction between “born” and “naturalized” citizens and those “grandfathered” into the status through this law.

Another interesting issue this extended citizenship raises is one of dual citizenship in the US. Formally, the US asks that you denounce your other citizenship when you become a US citizen. It’s on the naturalization application, and the implication is that “I am the US, your Nation, thou shalt have no other nation before me”. I have to wonder what might happen in a really malignant case where you’re a dual citizen against your will, not from the perspective of being fined in Poland for traveling on the wrong passport, but in the US.

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[info]crimsonfleur
2003-10-10 01:50 am UTC (link)
a kettle of bigos.. i like that..

yeah, i was thinking about this tonight while out clubbing.. and found out my clubbing buddy was a little polish.. almost went on a rant about it with her, but decided not to.. got home and my mom was sitll awake so i was like “you knwo what i read online today?” and i told her.. she thinks is makes no sense… as for me, i think it’s rediculously absurd that something like this is even an issue. i mean.. eh, i dunno what i mean anymore.i’ve over thought this thing way too much today.

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a kettle of bigos
[info]robol
2003-10-10 06:33 am UTC (link)
Since you read Polish you may find fast answers here: http://www.forumpolonia.com/konsultacje/pytania.htm

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[info]acailin
2003-10-09 11:46 am UTC (link)
Something doesn’t make sense. My aunt and uncle go to Poland every other year with their American passports, and we have an obviously Polish last name, so why did they have no trouble?

I’m the child of a former Polish citizen, but being born in the States, I can’t see why my travels there (which hopefully come May 2004) would be impeded by just not having a Polish passport.

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one really should read the article
[info]robol
2003-10-09 12:46 pm UTC (link)
You really really really really really really should read the article under the link in the post #1. I’ll do it for you this time:

But, I hear you say, some of my friends, who were also born outside of Poland, have traveled to Poland on an Australian passport in recent years. Yeah, that’s true, but if they did it in the last 18 months or so, they were potentially risking detention in Poland, since they were technically in breach of the new Polish law, which was revised and implemented in 2001.

Otherwise you may sound like some uniformed Briton and I am sure you don’t want to sound British🙂, do you?
That’s how they sound:

Engilsh is an amaznig langauge
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elinsgh uinervtisy, it dseon’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by itslef but the wrod as a wlohe. Wreid, inst’it ??!!!

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[info]ksta
2003-10-09 09:45 am UTC (link)
And next time you travel to Poland you’d better have a Polish passport, or you could be in trouble with the law!!

That is utter tripe.

You may have a passport, you don’t HAVE to have one.

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[info]yourfavthrill
2003-10-09 10:29 am UTC (link)
I agree, tripe. But I take mine anyway.. =)
Have never used it though, even for official things i show the american one..

you people crack me up though..😉

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[info]ksta
2003-10-09 03:30 pm UTC (link)
‘you people’?
Which people would that be?

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it’s not that big of a deal
[info]freyjasrage
2003-10-09 04:01 pm UTC (link)
I was born in Poland, have a Polish name, and an American passport. I’ve flown under my American passport to and from Poland for years and have yet to encounter a problem.

This whole “getting arrested” thing for not having a Polish passport happens very rarely. And when it does happen, it’s really just to make money off of people by forcing them to get a Polish passport.

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Re: it’s not that big of a deal
[info]robol
2003-10-09 04:45 pm UTC (link)
I agree that’s no big deal, because “getting arrested” thing for not having a Polish passport happens very rarely so most of the time it’s only 2 months detention in Poland.

Two months is the standard minimum waiting time for a Polish passport issued in Poland. “So what are you complaining about?” – the joke-monster woman will say – “just find something to do for the two months and you’ll be just fine. Take the chesty girl to the movies or something…”

Right about now you’re probably thinking that the privilege of a dual citizenship should not be compulsory, but rather should be a matter of choice.

So just take some extra funds next time. Just in case. You never know😉

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Re: it’s not that big of a deal
[info]freyjasrage
2003-10-10 09:29 am UTC (link)
Exactly🙂

By the way, what happened? Was this a personal experience of yours? Did you get arrested?

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on parole now😉
[info]robol
2003-10-11 09:53 am UTC (link)

I am currently on parole😉

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[info]zyna_kat
2003-10-10 07:54 am UTC (link)
According to the Polish Consulate, it’s not not true:
http://www.polandembassy.org/Links/consular/Citizenship.htm

To Quote:
THE LAW:

The principles of citizenship are governed by the Constitution of the Republic of Poland and the Citizenship Act of February 15, 1962.

BY DESCENT:

A child acquires citizenship regardless of the country of birth, if both parents are citizens of Poland or at least one of the parents is a Polish citizen and the other is either unknown or whose citizenship cannot be established, or who is stateless.

A child, one of whose parents is a citizen of a foreign country acquires Polish citizenship by birth. However by affidavit executed before proper Polish authorities within three months after the birth of the child the parents can choose foreign citizenship for the child if the laws of the foreign country grant the child citizenship based on descent from the foreign parent. Polish citizenship can be granted to that child if he or she executes an affidavit expressing the will of becoming the citizen before proper Polish authorities after turning 16, but before 6 months to the legal age.

=====

Either that, or the consulate site hasn’t been updated… which I doubt.

Would be nice though–it’d be cool to have dual citizenship!

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[info]robol
2003-10-10 08:27 am UTC (link)
You lost me there:

According to the Polish Consulate, it’s not not true:

What’s it which is not true? Would you care to explain?

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[info]zyna_kat
2003-10-10 09:53 am UTC (link)
It looks like someone born outside of Poland can’t claim citizenship unless certain criteria are met. The part that isn’t true is: “But at least one of your parents or grandparents was Polish. You’ve never been to Poland – hell, you can’t even speak the language. Well, guess what? You’re a Polish citizen!”

According to the consulate, being or becomming a Polish citizen requires more than just having a Polish citizen for a parent or grandparent. The laws about Polish passports apply to folks who claim Polish citizenship, but apparently that’s not as widespread as the cyberexpress site makes out to be.

Kat

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I strongly disagree with your interpretation
[info]robol
2003-10-10 10:20 am UTC (link)
…you’re automatically becoming a Pole, unless in 3 months of your birth your Polish parent will report to Polish authorities, that a newborn is going to be a citizen of his/her spouse country. The question is: who remembers to do it while being so busy with diapers? Only maybe if you are a big fish in the government at the moment and you have to.

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Re: I strongly disagree with your interpretation
[info]zyna_kat
2003-10-10 11:20 am UTC (link)
Except, my parents were both US citizens when I was born. Why would US citizens report to the Polish authorities that the child they had on US soil wasn’t a Polish citizen?

Now, if I was born in Poland, and later moved, or my parents were still Polish citizens when I was born, then… maybe I could see that interpretation. But since I’m not even *eligible* to become a Polish citizen, unless I go through the 5 year residency/emigration process, then I’m not sure how they can force me to become one.

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Re: I strongly disagree with your interpretation
[info]robol
2003-10-10 01:18 pm UTC (link)
It doesn’t work the way you see it. You are a Polish Citizen right now whether you like it or not. You do NOT have to go through the 5 year residency/emigration process and nobody can FORCE you to become one, but as soon as you set your foot on the Polish soil, you are on at the very second a full fledged Polish Citizen and you are forced at least to obtain a Polish passport in order to leave the country (providing that you already have an American one). So you just sit there for two months waiting for it. Of course you may renounce your second citizenship but that will cost you time and money and only president of RP may or may not approve it.

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Re: I strongly disagree with your interpretation
[info]robol
2003-10-10 02:36 pm UTC (link)
Section 11 of the new citizenship law identifies a Polish citizen by birth as a person born of at least one Polish citizen parent. As a consequence of this definition, ANY AND ALL PERSONS WITH AT LEAST ONE POLISH CITIZEN GRANDPARENT automatically acquire Polish citizenship at birth (because at least one of their parents had at least one Polish citizen parent and thus held Polish citizenship by descent).

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How about finishing our refutation here?😉
[info]robol
2003-10-12 04:25 am UTC (link)
Perhaps all those quotes are too legalese or too lawyerese for all of us on purpose? Perhaps that’s the purpose of the Big Polish Brother?

Of course the ultimate proof would be to actually go to Poland and deliver in person to the Polish Boarder Guards your interpretation supported with the printout from the D.C. Embassy site. ::cut::

So what would you say about finishing our arguments here?

“The official information on how descendants of Polish Nationals proceed to firstly confirm citizenship and then secure a passport is given below.”
::more::

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Re: How about finishing our refutation here?😉
[info]zyna_kat
2003-10-12 07:32 am UTC (link)
Of course the ultimate proof would be to actually go to Poland and deliver in person to the Polish Boarder Guards your interpretation supported with the printout from the D.C. Embassy site.

I agree with that–though since I’m not planning on travelling in the near future, I won’t be able to find out first hand anytime soon.

Don’t get me wrong–I’m really glad you brought this up, Pan. I didn’t mean to agrue with you–I’d just like to get to the bottom of it all. I’ll definitely be keeping track of this issue in the future.

It’s cool to be a Polish citizen! And when I go there, I’ll be sure to have the proper papers.

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Thank you
[info]robol
2003-10-12 09:32 am UTC (link)
Thank you for your nice response. It’s NOT a hoax. What amazes me is: how many of 13 000 000 members strong Polish diaspora would NOT believe at first in such an absurd. I wouldn’t either. But then one talks to those who went there …

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You cited an exception to the rule
[info]robol
2003-10-10 10:39 am UTC (link)
.. which says, that you may overturn your parents decision 6 months before ‘legal age’. Which sounds tricky to me: they want to catch you BEFORE you actually are UnPolish Citizen.

“However by affidavit executed before proper Polish authorities within three months after the birth of the child the parents can choose foreign citizenship for the child if the laws of the foreign country grant the child citizenship based on descent from the foreign parent. Polish citizenship can be granted to that child if he or she executes an affidavit expressing the will of becoming the citizen before proper Polish authorities after turning 16, but before 6 months to the legal age.” <– this is from your link

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those are udated August 2003
[info]robol
2003-10-10 09:45 am UTC (link)
DUAL NATIONALITY: In addition to being subject to all Polish laws affecting U.S. citizens, individuals who also possess the nationality of Poland may be subject to other laws that impose special obligations on citizens of that country. For additional information, see the Bureau of Consular Affairs home page on the Internet at http://travel.state.gov for our Dual Nationality flyer.
http://travel.state.gov/poland.html

The U.S. Government recognizes that dual nationality exists but does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Claims of other countries on dual national U.S. citizens may conflict with U.S. law, and dual nationality may limit U.S. Government efforts to assist citizens abroad. The country where a dual national is located generally has a stronger claim to that person’s allegiance.
http://travel.state.gov/dualnationality.html

Poland requires Polish citizens (including American citizens who are or can be claimed as Polish citizens) to enter and depart Poland using a Polish passport. Americans who are also Polish citizens or who are unsure if they hold Polish citizenship should contact the nearest Polish consular office for further information.

Polish-American, Canadian and Australian communities have been protesting the mandatory use of Polish passports for over three years, as long as the absurd Polish regulations exist. They demanded a change in the Polish law so that it would recognize their dual citizenship. This demand was fully justified on the basis of 13-million Polish Diaspora.
http://www.geocities.com/docudepot/

. Getting a Polish passport will cost you about $500, take six to nine months, require entering into civil records in Poland all the personal information regarding yourself and your children, if you have them or if you are ever going to have any. I hope you have never divorced anyonein Australia – if so, you will need to have this divorce approved by the Polish courts, who can demand that your divorce case be re-heard in Poland. You do not know where your ex is? Stiff. You will also need to be issued with a Polish National ID number (PESEL) – this alone can take you six months. While in Poland with your hard won Polish pasport , you can forget about assistance of the Australian Consul in the event of any mishap. You will also have no recourse whatsoever from any actions of corrupt local officials and police, who might or might not want to shake you out for money, for in Poland you are a “leszcz” (rich foreign sucker). As I said – no problem! Welcome to your birth right!!!

http://www.cyberexpres.com/display.asp?id=1452

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